The ones that I think most apply to Chrome are short stride with toe first landing, standing with his front feet under him (I've noticed this in the past, but never could figure out what caused it so I assumed it was a conformation thing, but apparently it is a posture thing...), stifle catching and sweet itch. Could magnesium really help these things??? It's enough to make me want to try it. The problem is they say that magnesium chloride is the best source and I can't find a single supplement using it!! I would like to try a hoof supplement since it will have copper, zinc, biotin, etc. in it too, but if there isn't one does anyone have any idea how to find just magnesium chloride by itself? Also on the hoof supplements do they normally have calcium in them? This website says too much calcium can inhibit absorption of magnesium. Also according to them grass hay provides all of the calcium they need. So anyway this is getting longer than I intended. I can't process coherent thought anymore because I've had my nose buried in this too long, so I'm going to take a break. :) Thanks for any help!!!
P.S. Here is the page with the case study on a horse who has always been barefoot but landed toe first like Chrome and how magnesium helped him (LINK).
I don't have answers to the horse question, but I use magnesium spray on my back. Works wonders in relieving pain because it relaxes muscles :)
ReplyDeleteInteresting! I've never tried it. I've heard soaking in Epsom salt can help with muscle pain. I should have thought of that after the fall lol. I actually have a magnesium deficiency and I have to take it. Of course I just realized my own supplement is magnesium oxide which isn't the most easily absorbed form, but it works for me, so maybe it will be okay to try it for Chrome. I don't know if hoof supplements typically have magnesium in them though... I really wanted to try the zinc and biotin too because I've heard good things about them. Fingers crossed someone has something useful for me. My blogger buddies have never failed me before! :D
DeleteIf you have cattle in your area, the feed store will probably sell magox. Should be very cheap. I can't find it here so I use Animed Remission. Much more expensive than magox, but decently priced for all the other stuff it has in it and Dijon needs a lot of magnesium.
ReplyDeleteHmm I've never heard of those! I'll check them out. The feed store where I work doesn't sell anything, but I'll check the feed stores in nearby towns. I'm also looking up the AniMed Remission right now. Thanks for the tips!
DeleteI found this on the AniMed Remission. "REMISSION is a scientifically engineered blend of supportive natural ingredients with probiotics and a functional carbohydrate (second generation prebiotic).
DeleteNutritional support for horses foundered or prone to the risk of founder. REMISSION contains magnesium, antioxidants, Omega 3 and Omega 6 Fatty Acids and Amino Acids.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS per ounce (2 scoop): l-Lysine 2150mg, Methionine 3000mg, Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 Fatty Acid) 510mg, Magnesium 6000mg, Selenium 1ppm, Zinc 100mg, Biotin 20mg, Niacin 40mg, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 1200mg, Vitamin E 70IU, Total Lactic Acid Bacteria (Probiotics) 175 million CFU
INGREDIENTS: Magnesium Oxide, Flaxseed Meal, Dl-Methionine, Stabilized Rice Bran, l-Lysine, Biotin, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation solubles, Zinc Proteinate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (Vitamin C), Yeast Extract, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, Enterococcus (Streptococcus) faecium fermentation product, Bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, mixed alpha tocopherol acetate (Vitamin E), Flax Seed Oil, Niacin, Silica. "
So it does use magnesium oxide. Does it seem to make a difference for Dijon? Is he on the loading dose or the maintenance dose? What is he taking it for? Hooves or anxiety?
Dijon was put on Magnesium and E by the vet to deal with his tendons and neural issues. He's very clumsy and yet still likes to run around like an idiot so he kept re-injuring himself/not healing. He has bowed tendons in both back legs 1.5 years ago. I suppose the Magnesium helps. He's still a nut, but he has been relatively sound since we started it.
DeleteIf you just want magnesium for the feet, you might want to do an epsom salt soak - epsom salt is basically magnesium. It's why people do epsom salt baths. I'd recommend biotin for feet more than magnesium. Honestly, I'm not sure how much I believe any of this stuff works, but I feed what my vet tells me to. So I feed magnesium and E to Dijon and Biotin and to Shasta for her feet. They're also both on MSM and other joint meds as prescribed.
I've heard of people soaking in Epsom salt for magnesium, but I've also heard there is no science to back up that it actually soaks in through the skin. So I'm not sure how much it would help or anything. I'm skeptical of everything too, but I know magnesium makes me feel much better (I am deficient). Thanks for the information. I've decided to wait until the vet is out and just run a blood panel to see if he's low in anything before I start supplementing him. :)
DeleteThis is very interesting! I don't have the answers, but you can bet I'll be researching it!
ReplyDeleteAwesome! Let me k know what you find out please!
DeleteWow! Hadn't seen that before, but that's good to know.
ReplyDeleteMonty and Harlow
This is why I love blogging so we can share stuff like this!
Deleteinteresting! the gastric supplements i started isabel on have magnesium in them, but it's still too early to see what kind of difference they're making... she also frequently stands with her feet (all four) pretty far under her.. again not sure what it means but i've noticed it...
ReplyDeleteanyways, good luck and let us know what you find!
Which gastric supplement is she on? Let me know if you see her posture relax and improve after she's been on it a while if you don't mind.
DeleteI buy my Mg here: http://horsetech.com/ingredients.html#trace You can see the various ways in which it is presented there. I've used MgO2 with no issue. They've got MgCO3 and MgPO3, too, it seems.
ReplyDeleteMagnesium is VERY commonly used with Arabians in the endurance world. Used to calm them down mostly, but many other benefits for hi-test horses in peak shape competing in sometimes high-stress environments. Q gets 3 scoops from the itty bitty scoop that comes with it every time I grain her.
Good to know! Thank you for the link. I'll check those out!
DeleteI've been supplementing magnesium since I got Val. Big improvement to his feet - enough that I've kept him barefoot for five years. There is reduced foolishness as well. ;D Apparently many horses (and humans) are deficient.
ReplyDeleteI use magnesium citrate - supposedly the most bio-available form - from bulkfoods.com. I converted the Merck manual rda to 142g, estimated what his hay provides - a vet shared with me that hay averages (10,000 sample study) just 30% of the rda, and then calculated what his feed contained. Very mathy ;D
For Val (1250lbs) it works out to two tbsp (15g) per day.
Yikes could you do the math for me? I'm horrible with math! Chrome eats Nutrena Empower Balance which (according to Nutrena) has 0.4% magnesium. He eats a pound a day. He eats round bales of good quality, fertilized bermuda hay free choice. He weighed 1128lbs in September when I last measured him. He's a bit fat so he may be more than that right now. Thank you!!!!
DeleteWent to Nutrena to check out the ingredients in the Empower Balance. I couldn't find magnesium anywhere on the label. Called the manufacturer to confirm. Once they get back to me, I'd be happy to calculate for you.
DeleteDoes Chrome get anything else, feed or supplement-wise besides the Nutrena and hay? Any grazing? Do I remember reading that fruit falls into his pasture sometimes?
The folks at Rockley Farm have a great book about caring for your horses feet. A few things are different because they're in England, but still an excellent resource. And I think Nic is a she lol. :D
Oops! I did not know Nic was a she. My bad!
DeleteThe Nutrena rep I spoke to said it has 0.4% magnesium in it. They apparently don't have to list it for some reason, but it is in there.
There is fruit, but it's only for a short time. It's persimmons from two trees for about a month in the fall, but I pick up as much as possible and throw it over the fence because I don't want them to founder on them. There is grazing in the summer. It varies depending on if we have a drought, but this past summer we had grass for six months or more. They barely ate any hay because the grass was so thick. We had a wet summer though. I'm going to have my grass and hay tested this summer I think. The only other thing he gets in the winter is alfalfa pellets (I used to use beet pulp, but I already had alfalfa pellets so I didn't get more beet pulp) when it's really cold so that I can soak it and get extra water and salt in him to be sure he's drinking plenty. It's just two handfuls in the morning and two at night with lots of water (I doubt it's even half a pound a day). If he loses weight he gets Nutrena Empower Boost which is a rice bran fat supplement. I had him on it when the weather started to get cold, but he got too fat, spooky and energetic so I took him off of it. I will only put him back on it if he loses weight. So yeah... not a very consistent diet. Sorry!! I just kind of add or remove things as needed. :\
Best that I can estimate with the info provided - I think a safe amount would be 3 Tbsp daily for a month or so, then down to two, which is what Val gets. And for what it's worth - giving Val rice bran to keep weight on made him hot and hard to deal with. I switched to cocosoya oil. If you want to chat further my email is xianleigh(at)earthlink(dot)net
DeleteThank you for the help!! That's interesting about the rice bran. I've had him on straight rice bran before and I don't remember it making him crazy, but I wasn't riding him then either... I've definitely noticed a change in him since I took him off the fat supplement two weeks ago. He's much more relaxed and laid back. My sweet boy is back!! I'm so happy. Now if only the world would thaw so I could get back on! I will add your email and get back to you if I have anymore questions. Thank you very much. :D
DeleteSorry - that should read 2.5g per day. Apparently I do need my reading glasses.
ReplyDeleteOK I don't have DEFINITIVE answers but I do have two obsessions: calming my horse down and BAREFOOT! Also, recently, calcium absorption in my horse (I feed a phosphorus-high feed so am worried about Murray's calcium). First things first: waking patterns. Here's my go-to resource for barefoot and foot-strike information in horses:
ReplyDeletehttp://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/
Rockley Farm is a rehab center in the UK that pretty successfully takes horses that have caudal hoot pain (many chronic, some with navicular changes and liminitis) and rehabs them to sound
barefoot work. Never anywhere on the Rockley blog have I read about magnesium influencing hoof strike patterns, BUT that is not to say that it does not happen. My thought is that since you are probably getting some nice green grass, the sugars are making him heel-sore and he's not getting the heel-first landing he needs, but that info is all gleaned from Rockley and I'm not an equine vet, hoof specialist, or even really more than an amateur who reads a lot.
This is one website that describes a lot of magnesium symptoms that have NOTHING to do with hooves and foot strike performance. http://performanceequinenutrition.com/magnesium-101/ Personally, these are the symptoms that I deal with on a daily basis with Murray that a dose of Magnesium by MVP pharmaceuticals helps with tremendously.
Calcium: never seen it in the hoof supplements I've used. It's not that important to hoof wall development. Super important for young horses, but if you're not feeding a phosphorus high feed, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Hoof supplements: SmartHoof worked really well for me, but pretty much the active ingredient is biotin. https://www.smartpakequine.com/smarthoof-pellets-7474p For example. But it CAN make horses a little nutty, depending on the horse, so keep an eye on it.
Ok that's my epic tale. I hope it helps!!
I have been to the Rockley Farm blog, but I had no idea I could email him. I thought they had quit posting too, but it looks like there are new ones so I'll check it out again. There is no grass here at all in the dead of winter. He's landed toe first on his fronts his entire life, even when on a dry lot. All he eats is bermuda grass hay and Nutrena Empower Balance (a ration balancer). So where could he be getting sugar? I think what they are saying on this page I found about the magnesium is that it is muscle tension that is causing the toe first landing from being magnesium deficient. Obviously giving magnesium to a horse who isn't deficient isn't going to change anything, but if he is it could help... I just looked at your list of symptoms and none of those really describe him... so what could be causing the hoof pain and standing under in the front? Should I just put him on a hoof supplement and treat for thrush? I was doing better about exercising him, but if he's not landing heel first is that going to help? Also how do you know if your feed is phosphorus high? I'm feeding Nutrena Empower Balance. I appreciate any help in understanding all of this. I get so lost in all the details and get overwhelmed and then just stop absorbing information at all lol. Thanks for the comment!
DeleteOhhh ok so here in California we get the opposite. Green pastures in the winter and bare in the summer, so now is when we typically start to see foot problems. That's where I got the idea of green from.
DeleteHay has a good phosphorus level for horses, and Empower Balance will not have an inappropriately high phosphorus level, as it's specifically designed to balance minerals/nutrients. High phosphorus is found in certain grains such as oats and barley (and corn, I think), though barley has the highest levels. So I think you have no need to worry about phosphorus at all.
I too have emailed Nic at the Rockley blog and got a helpful, though vague, answer back. Most of what I've learned from the blog has been from combing through various blogs to hunt down information.
Unless Chrome is a very clear toe-first lander, it's possible you might want to re-evaluate his landing. Try walking him on a gentle down-slope. Does he land toe-first in all substrates (soft, gravel, and hard ground?) or just the hard ones? Different landing patterns can indicate if he has true caudal pain or not.
Finally... while a toe first landing is NOT ideal, many, many, many, many horses live and deal with them for a long time. Like, their entire lives. And they are serviceably sound and compete, sometimes to very high levels. I am not sure that a toe-first landing is something that neessarily warrants excess worry unless there are additional symptoms that go along with them (head-bob, devolving soundness in a particular limb, really messed up foot shape, etc.) however I'm not a vet etc. as I said above, so definitely research beyond my opinion.
Finally... the great thing about magnesium is that it's really, really hard to overload your horse on it. So go ahead and try it! Worse case scenario, you see NO difference. Best case scenario, it decreases some spooks and helps Chrome's feet! Since magnesium does have an important role in muscles and soreness, I can see how it could be related to posture, stance, and stride, though I haven't yet read good evidence about it. Finally, if he's sound and willing to work... I say work him, toe-first landing or no.
Oh also try filming Chrome's stride! If you have the slow motion app on your phone use that! It can really help.
DeleteLol California is so backwards hehe. I'm glad to know that about the phosphorous! Thank you! I can see Chrome's toe first landing without slow motion. It's pretty obvious. I do have slow motion video but it's always been on flat asphalt. I never thought about doing it on different surfaces!! Also he lands heel first at the canter and I'm pretty sure at the trot too. I'll have to look at video tomorrow to be sure. I'm not on my computer so I can't look at them right now. Here is a video of his canter slowed down. http://youtu.be/txpmwfHwuLo I slowed it down to show his weird lead change but it shows heel first landings too. Here is the slow motion video from 2012 http://youtu.be/qK0uXbCnzKY I need to get a current one to compare because I think it's weird than this now. I'll do a hoof post as soon as the weather allows.
DeleteThat was supposed to say worse now not weird lol. Here is a trot video from 2012. You can see when he's excited he is heel first but then he switches between heel first, toe first and level landings.
DeleteUnfortunately canter landings are almost always heel first, I think, so they're not good as a diagnostic. Trot landings are good. Not sure that your persimmons could cause enough of a sugary cascade in Chrome's physiology to cause foot soreness this long after the fact, but the large amounts of grass he got to eat during the summer could certainly have led to possible changes. However, we're really getting into unknown territory for me, so I think we will need to read up on grass and how that affects feet a lot more to figure things out on this front. Another however: studies of wild horses have shown that even THEY don't all land heel first and so... yeah. Lots to think on. I assume Chrome is barefoot?
DeleteYes he's barefoot. I was under the impression that once they had been off of grass for a few weeks that most horses showed huge improvement, so I didn't think it caused long term symptoms. However he was on a dry lot for over a year and always landed toe first (that I noticed...). I did notice today though that when walking out in his pasture on a very slight downhill he was landing heel first!! So maybe it's just the asphalt?? I've never recorded video of or even paid that much attention to how he lands in the pasture. I'm not going to drive myself crazy over this since he's not lame. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can and I'm trying to take preventative measures. That's interesting about the wild horses... so maybe some just land toe first because of conformation or something?
DeleteI second Nichole's suggestion on Rockley Farm, Nic is VERY helpful and has no problem answering any questions you may have if you email him. Here they are on FB https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rockley-Farm/129496323778726
ReplyDeleteI have heard him talk about supplements but I have never heard him talk about Magnesium changing how a hoof strikes the ground. It is always about hoof balance, exercise on varied footing and proper, balanced diet.
I've been to their blog. Since they are in the U.K. I can't really use his suggestions for feed. I need suggestions for good feed and supplements here. He does say that most horses need supplemental magnesium on his feeding essentials page though (and he says magnesium oxide is fine). On the movement page it just says they should land heel first, but not how to get that. I did look at his hooves today and his heels do seem wider so I think the increased exercise is helping with the contraction so that's a good thing. Maybe he just needs a lot more exercise?? Maybe that's the key ingredient I'm missing... I was doing well with it, but the weather has been absolutely awful.. I'll try to get back to exercising him soon. I'm just worried because everything I read says that landing toe first can cause excess strain on tendons, but how in the heck do I get him landing heel first?? It just feels like a never ending battle. I've tried everything I know to try and magnesium was just my next step I guess. His feet look actually look really good! His heels are even starting to come back since the increased exercise is keeping his toes back. Maybe I'm just being impatient...
DeleteAlso I forgot to mention he's not acting ouchy on gravel anymore since I redirected the rain out of the barn and added the gravel. He still lands toe first though....
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for sharing this. I think magnesium could really help Apollo!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad it helps! This is why I love blogging because we can share so much information with each other. :-)
DeleteI use zinc/copper (Biotin Z) for hoof/coat quality and also a custom magnesium/chromium supplement. Chromium is very important for horses that have metabolic issues/insulin resistance - which usually shows up as sore feet. There's a commercially available chromium supplement called Platinum Performance Chromium Yeast. For magnesium, I would use magnesium oxide - HorseTech is a good source.
ReplyDeleteThank you! I'll check those out!
DeleteLate to the party, but I did have issues with Ginger a couple of winters ago. She was really muscle sore, quite flinchy/touchy, and lost quite a bit of weight. The vet came out and sure enough she tested slightly low for magnesium and selenium and I needed to switch her to a different supplement and it made a big difference, weight gained back, no more soreness, and her coat looks wonderful now which you'd think would mean her feet are healthier too. She actually had better feet then than now though, so I guess I'm not much help. Just wanted to mention it, since getting the mineral panel done via the vet wasn't overly expensive and he was able to customize feeding recommendations based on the results. It felt nice to know for sure what we were lacking.
ReplyDeleteThank you. Getting a panel done is what I'm leaning toward doing. :)
DeleteVery interesting about magnesium, thanks for all the info - def worth looking into as it sounds like it should have a positive effect on many issues!
ReplyDeleteAfraid i can't add anything to the discussion as i am woefully under-informed on all these things - i will say that standing with his front legs under him could come from his Friesian daddy - Nancy does it too and having googled Friesian pictures online, many of them stand that way too ... I am not saying this is what is happening in our horses, but just food for thought i guess.
You know that's true! I had noticed that about Friesians as well but I had forgotten. Hmm. Very well could be a possibility. Thanks!!
DeleteHi - I realize I'm late to reading/commenting on this, so I hope you still see it... :-) I use a powdered magnesium for the horses and I love it. I forget the name (I'm at work) but will look it up and send it to you. It is from the US (I'm in Canada) so should be easy for you to get if it looks like it might work.
ReplyDeleteMy friend's horse can't be without a mg supplement - he gets miserable due to muscle pain without it. It is noticeable after only a week off the supplement, so it is easiest to keep him on it.
That's awesome! Thank you!
Delete